I'm in the market for a new amp. However, I'm in a bit of a quandry.

Until recently, I was using a Quad 33 pre and Quad 303 power combination. I absolutely loved the sound, but ended up selling it due to spiralling maintainance costs. A real shame.

Can anyone advise me on some of the newer integrated amps on the market? I've read great things about the current Rotel range (Specifically the RA03), but how would these compare to older amps like the Linn Intek and older pre-power combos like the Quad 77/707, Linn LK1/LK100 e.t.c.? Basically looking at a budget of anything up to £500 but am prepared to buy old if it gets me, as I suspect it will, a better sounding setup.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Hi Alan,

Two aspects of your post don't quite "gel"..

Sean's comment:
"By the time you get right to the middle of the lacquer - 11 or 12 minutes in - they've completely disappeared."

Your caveat:
"he's talking about 45 rpm records, not LPs"

.. unless Sean is describing the 45rpm/12inch format and NOT the old 45rpm/7inch "singles" or "EP's"

The old 7inch 45rpm form-factor was the result of a marketing decision by the record companies - a mechanism to:

a. Replace the 78rpm single play form factor (fragile)
b. Offer - supposedly - better sound (microgroove)
c. Lower cost of materials for manufacture
d. Lower price to buyers (copyright for 2-4 songs, etc.)
e. Generate sales at high volumes

Its sound quality was never particularly impressive (here in South Africa and in Rhodesia back in the 1960's - the quality control on manufacture was poor...)

The issue with the seven-inch formats was the limited amount of music it was possible to get on each side - typically 2 x songs of about 3-4 minutes each - which implies a total of around 8 minutes per side...

Not enough for Sean's "11 or 12 minutes in" - so he has to be describing 12inch 45rpm records...

Anyway - "inner-groove distortion" issue is just another red herring... You have a penchant for tossing these into discussions?

As is the discussion around the first versus last minute of recorded sound on an LP's playing surface - another red herring? or does this one qualify as a "purple kipper"?

The decision to have your system set-up checked/tuned is very good news - I think you'll be surprised (pleasantly, of course!).

I too enjoy what is probably best described as "lively or robust debate" - it adds spice to a process that can become wearing.

Right now, I am "sans vinyl" as I am still waiting for the phono stage to arrive from Canada (Classe' is Canadian). Once it arrives, I then have to disconnect the pre-amp and cart it 25 miles to the dealer; leave it there for a day while they retro-fit the phono board into the pre-amp; then go back and collect the preamp; drive home; re-install the pre-amp..

Also, and worse still, the cantilever that holds the stylus on my cartridge has been damaged by the cleaning lady - she must have (against my strict instructions) raised the turntable dust-cover and tried to dust the top of the plinth... Anyway, she snagged the cantilever and bent it... So now have to replace the cartridge - moving coil designs do not permit simple stylus replacement.

As I am in the process of archiving vinyl to CD-R - and will, after completion of the process, hardly ever play the original vinyl - the cartridge replacement is a tricky balance:

a. Need to obtain "best" sound as source of recording
b. Don't want to spend a fortune for short-term usage

Also, everybody and his dog "knows just the cartridge for you" and their pricing is astronomical - and totally unrealistic given my "situation"

Problem also exacerbated by very limited choice here in South Africa (only 2-3 makes available).

Anyway, that's my problem and its a logistical one which I'll probably solve by stopping off in London on a business trip later this year and picking up a cartridge while I'm there....

Good luck with your system set-up check and may vinyl sound like heaven...

Hi Devillears

Hmmm, I'm not convinced that overcoming the problem of inner groove distortion is as easy as you suggest: what exactly does "taking it into account" during mastering mean? The following is a quotation from Sean Magee, a mastering engineer at Abbey Road studios, talking about the issue of inner groove distortion:

"Where you really notice it is with things like high pitched snares, the ones that really ping that people use on techno records. By the time you get right to the middle of the lacquer - 11 or 12 minutes in - they've completely disappeared."
Sean Magee - Mastering Engineer, Abbey Road Studios

(Quoted on the BBC radio 1 website.) Admittedly, he's talking about 45 rpm records, not LPs, but surely that just means we've got slightly longer, maybe 16 minutes or so, before the high frequencies have totally disappeared into the mush? Certainly most LP records have more than 16 minutes of music per side.

So that doesn't really answer my question about which point in the record the audiophiles are referring to when they say vinyl sounds better than CD. I'm willing to bet they'd rather compare a CD against the first minute of music on an LP than the last.

Having said all that, the fact remains that I've still got a pile of records that I want to play, and I want them to sound as good as possible. Therefore I shall definitely follow your advice of going to a reputable dealer and asking them to help me set up a decent system properly.

Thanks for your lively, ongoing correspondence. I hope you continue to enjoy your LPs as much as I hope one day to be able to enjoy mine!

Cheers

Alan

Hi Steve,

Try one more experiment...

Unplug the turntable interconnects from the amp and check to see if the "interference" remains.

If not, try reconnecting one channel at a time, to try to narrow down the problem area.

If the amp still exhibits the "interference" with nothng connected, your amp's phono stage has been visited by a phantom taxidermist... (ie: its stuffed!)

If the "interference" disappears when the turntable interconnects are disconnected, then there is some grounding problem in the turntable - take in the unit to a dealer for a check-up.

Good luck.

Yes, it happens when the phono stage is selected without a record being played. When played, the noise elevates in conjunction with the volume being turned up. It sounds like the ground isn't connected, but it is! I think it could be the power cable supplied (bog standard three-pin) because the Marantz takes a two-pin plug, so I'm going to try that first - you never know!

Tracking angle does change (as per the "Laws of Physics" to which you refer). The amount of change in tracking angle can be calculated as follows:

Assume Arm Lenth = 12"
Assume LP Groove Span = 4"
Angle shift is ARCSIN 4/12 (in degrees) = 19.5 degrees

(Now you've gone and made me think back 40 years to "A"-Level Maths...

The latest stylus shapes are designed to cope with this angle shift and should NOT produce distortion.

As far as velocities are concerned:

a. Angular Velocity (AV) for Vinyl is a CONSTANT (33.3 rpm)
b. Linear Tracking Velocity (LTV) is higher at perimeter than centre**

** LTV = AV x circumference (inches/min)
- circumference = diameter x "pi" (3.14)

At perimeter (diameter = 12) LTV = 33.3 x 12 x 3.14 = ~1200
At last track (diameter = 6) LTV = 33.3 x 6 x 3.14 = ~600

At the time of cutting the master, this is taken into account.

My LP12 DOES NOT display the problems you describe (neither do any of 4,999,999 other vinyl addicts have the same problem)

So, only conclusion is that, somewhere in your vinyl "chain", lies a problem.

From some 10,000 km aways (as the crow flies), there is not much more I can do to help.

So, back to first suggestion: get someone qualified to do the set-up/diagnostics... Otherwise CD awaits...

Hi Devillears

Thanks for your constructive advice: you have restored my hope somewhat. As I said in my original post, I desperately want vinyl to sound good, and I have been disappointed so far that I haven't managed to achieve good results, even though I have been really trying!

Most of the points you mention ought to be already taken care of: the Pro-ject comes with a decent (according to the press reviews) pre-fitted tonearm, cart and stylus, but even so I have checked the alignment and it seems OK. All you have to do when setting up is balance the arm and set the anti-skating weight (which I believe I have done correctly, though as a non-expert I cannot be sure). The turntable is standing on an old, sturdy, wooden chest, perfectly level and isolated from the rest of my separates.

I guess the one variable I cannot be so sure about is my phono stage, which is built into the receiver-amp, and I can't really claim that to be high end by any means. However, the point is that my records sound lovely at the beginning of each side; it's towards the middle they become unbearably over-sibilant, distorted and grating. To me, that suggests the problems lie not in my pre-amp, but in some mechanical arrangement on the turntable itself.

What concerns me is that, on looking round on the internet, I find lots of articles about inner groove distortion being an inherent part of vinyl reproduction: the laws of physics dictate that the needle has a tangentially lower speed towards the centre of the disc; and the tracking angle unavoidably gets skewed (unless you're using a linear tracking deck). So when the audiophiles wax lyrical about how great vinyl sounds, do they really mean for the first track per side only? Do they silently ignore the fact that one or two tracks at the end of each side are, actually, going to sound a bit, well, rubbish? I don't want to enjoy only half of my albums - I want to enjoy every track the same!

Tell me I'm wrong: tell me this inner groove conspiracy doesn't exist. But surely it must: you can't argue with the laws of physics. Can you?

Alan

Steve,

You use the term "interference" as opposed to "distortion".
This implies that, even when not playing a record, the "interference" can be heard.

Is this true? Or did you really mean distortion?

I've just bought a 2nd hand Marantz PM8200 amp to replace my ageing Linn Intek. Great sound except for the phono stage, which has a lot of interference. I sent it back to the sellers (Cash Converters, Preston) and they said it was working perfectly. I can't understand why my turntable (Revolver, with Linn Basik arm and Linn K9 cartridge) works perfectly with the Intek but doesn't with the Marantz. Has anybody any clues?

The first (and most likely) possible cause of the distortions you mention is overall "Set-Up" of the vinyl replay "system". What you are dealing with in vinyl is a mechanical process for reproducing an analogue source signal. This mechanical process and its optimisation are essential to good quality reproducion.

The mechanical components/variables are:

a. The support on which everything is sited (isolation?)
b. The base and suspension used (isolation again?)
c. The platter to disk support layer
d. The relationship of the tonearm to platter (height)
e. The relationship of cartridge to platter/disk (alignment)
f. The cartridge:tonearm compatibility (mass vs compliance)
g. The cartridge:headshell mounting (alignment, etc)

Any inconsistencies/incompatibilities in any of these could be the cause (from a mechanical perspective).

From an electrical (signal-feed) perspective, the other variables include:

a. Connection quality (cartridge-to-phono-stage)
b. Cartridge:Phono-Stage compatibility
c. Cartridge quality
d. Phono-Stage Quality
e. Phono-Stage to Amp connection

All of the above (both mechanical & electrical) need to be examined and "set-up" correctly. Any half-way decent dealer would be able to assist in this.

I take your point about cost and its a valid one - you don't need to spend a fortune, but, because of the mechanical components, good sound engineering is a requirement - so don't expect to find a well-engineered precision instrument (ie a turntable/tonearm) for a few bob...

Coming back to Vinyl vs CD...

I picked up a used Linn LP12 for GBP200, spent another GBP400 on bringing it up to spec and having it properly set-up and aligned. To me sounded really good - but I am no longer in the bloom of youth, so I asked my daughter (aged 19 at the time) to listen to a piece of music that I had on both vinyl and CD and then tell me which sounded better to her younger ears.

She was quite adamant that the vinyl "sound" was more realistic, had more "body" to it and - apart from the surface noise - provided a more pleasurable listening experience.

Your comment about "everybody switching to CD" is a gross exageration - and is getting worse by the day. Many music-lovers flatly refused to accept CD as a source of "well-reproduced" music and stuck to vinyl, and now, vinyl is seeing a huge revival, with many labels releasing decent vinyl pressings and many turntable manufacturers seeing sales beginning to climb again. Check out HFN&RR and their section on music for release details.

So, the bottom line comment on your distortion problem:

It would seem that the turntable/tonearm/cartridge "system" was never properly set-up to start with and all of your subsequent woes stemmed from there.

The distortion increase as the arm tracks to centre is usually caused by incorrect cartridge alignment coupled with the wrong settings for tracking force and anti-skating.

If you haven't already despatched the turntable, I would strongly suggest getting someone that knows their "stuff" to come in and "tweak" the settings until all is kosher.

Where CD does score is in lack of surface-noise and in the area of "couch-potato convenience". If these are the key factors, then go ahead and ditch the turntable and stick to those unromantic optical silver 5.25" disks..

Just don't chuck out the baby with bathwater!